"Fact, Faith, Foolishness"

September 29, 1976

download
  Players

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
 


Prabhupada: Na taj janesu abhijnesu. Abhijnah janesu, no attachment. Vyasadeva, Sukadeva Gosvami, Narada Muni, all the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, they have no respect for these. They're creating their howling habits, that's all. How there can be peace?

Doctor: Now when the Krsna mantras...

Prabhupada: Why do you say Krsna pantha?

Doctor: No, mantras. I have come to mantra. Klim krsnaya govindaya gopijanavallabhaya namah. Is that not a very powerful Krsna mantra?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Doctor: That is better than Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: No. Hare Krsna is therefore called maha-mantra.

Doctor: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare.

Prabhupada: Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.

Doctor: This you regard as the, higher than any other...

Prabhupada: Oh yes. Therefore it is called maha-mantra.

Doctor: But I was told that the Sudarsana-cakra words, mahamala parakramaya maha patanivaya bhakta jane kalpanaya,(?) that is a very powerful mantra.

Prabhupada: Yes. Everything in relationship with God is powerful. But the name in this age is the most powerful. Kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet [SB 12.3.51].

Doctor: And the word om has been praised in the Upanisads, but...

Prabhupada: Om, veda, pranavah sarva-vedesu. Krsna says that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh pranavah sarva-vedesu [Bg. 7.8]. Pranava is omkara. Sarva-vedesu, "That pranava I am." That is sound representation of Krsna.

Doctor: Then that one word as a mantra, is it not...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Doctor: ...the highest sort of word?

Prabhupada: No. If you keep Krsna, that "This pranava is the sound representation of Krsna," then it is all right. If you think it is separately powerful than Krsna, that is nama-aparadha.

Doctor: I understand.

Prabhupada: Yes. If you accept it as Krsna says, that "I am pranava," if you do remember Krsna by chanting omkara, then it is all right.

Doctor: Otherwise, om is only given to sannyasis?

Prabhupada: Not necessarily. It is not mentioned there. Anyone chanting Vedic mantra, he has to begin with omkara.

Doctor: All mantras begin with om.

Prabhupada: Yes, omkara. So sarva-vedesu. Pranavah sarva-vedesu. This is beginning. Just like we take Bhagavata, om namo bhagavate vasudevaya.

Doctor:

etad aksaram brahma

etad aksaram param

etad aksaram jnatva

yati ceti...(?)

Prabhupada: The difficulty is that we consider Krsna is different from omkara.

Doctor: That is a mistake.

Prabhupada: That is a mistake.

Doctor: But then Krsna is not different from Brahman.

Prabhupada: If you take this omkara as Krsna's sound representation, then it is all right.

Doctor: Then it is as good as chanting Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Doctor: But it does not give...

Prabhupada: But because Krsna is remembered, if you take omkara as Krsna's sound representation then Krsna is remembered.

Doctor: But Krsna is three letters. Om is one.

Prabhupada: That doesn't matter.

Doctor: In the last minute when you are dying you can feel it, easily feel it.

Prabhupada: Krsna has many names. Krsna has name Govinda. It is not three letters. It is more than that. Krsna has so many thousands names. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta. So therefore Krsna advises for the beginners, "Just try to remember Me in this way-raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8] -- I am the taste of the water." The water you must be drinking twice, thrice, four times. So when you drink water, the taste satisfies your thirst. So if you simply remember, "This taste is Krsna," that is Krsna conscious.

Doctor: When you eat food, that also, the taste is Krsna.

Prabhupada: No, especially of the water. Krsna is everything, but specifically he mentions, "The taste of the water I am." So you remember this.

Doctor: That's very interesting. So every time you drink water...

Prabhupada: You can remember Krsna. What is the wrong and what is the loss there? But you follow Krsna's instruction. Yes, sit down. There is no difficulty to become Krsna conscious. (microphone moves)

Doctor: Why do you tape record?

Hari-sauri: Everything Prabhupada speaks we tape record and then everyone in the world can listen.

Doctor: Someone said that the word om is given to sannyasis and it...

Prabhupada: No, Krsna does not say.

Doctor: It's not so.

Prabhupada: "Someone," we don't take authority. "Someone." There are so many "someones." We don't care for them. What Krsna says we accept. That's all.

Doctor: But this Katha-Upanisad praises om.

etad alambanam srestham

etad alambanam param

etad alambanam jnatva

brahma-loke mahiyate

Prabhupada: Yes, Upanisad is giving lesson, counter part of this material world. Because... Just like you are stressing on omkara because you do not give much importance to Krsna. In the material world, Krsna, they think Krsna is one of the historical persons. Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. So Upanisad is teaching us in an indirect way about the importance of Krsna. Upa-nisat. To bring you nearby. Because you have got so many material conceptions, if we say that "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead," you may not like it. Therefore... Omkara is Krsna. So you are giving lesson on omkara. Although Krsna and omkara is not different, but you'll not like Krsna. In your present position you'll not like Krsna's name.

Doctor: Why?

Prabhupada: No. Therefore you are stressing...

Doctor: No, I have read all this and I am trying to reconcile.

Prabhupada: So that is for the neophytes.

Doctor: The reconciliation is there. Om is Krsna, Krsna is om.

Prabhupada: So if Krsna is... If you are convinced, then where is the objection of Hare Krsna?

Doctor: No, no.

Prabhupada: Why should you bring so many objections?

Doctor: Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact.

Doctor: Ete camsa-kalah pumsah krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28].

Prabhupada: But because I do not like, therefore Upanisads give another chance, that "Chant omkara." That is the way. Because unless one is completely purified, he cannot understand Krsna.

yesam tv anta-gatam papam

jananam punya-karmanam

te dvandva-moha-nirmukta

bhajante mam drdha-vratah

 [Bg. 7.28]

Krsna bhajana is possible when one is completely free from all kinds of sinful activities. So not every one is freed from sinful activities. Therefore the indirect way. Otherwise, Upanisad is Veda.

Doctor: Based on Vedas. Right.

Prabhupada: Based. Krsna says vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. By studying Vedas, Upanisads, if you do not understand Krsna, that means your study is not complete. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. After studying this indirect information of Krsna, when one is actually a learned, wise man, he surrenders to Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. That is very rarely found. This is fact. So if one is intelligent, that if only the most intelligent person, after many, many births one has to surrender to Krsna, why not do it immediately? Why shall I wait for many, many births? That is intelligence.

Doctor: Sri-krsnas tu saranam mama.

Prabhupada: Vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. That is intelligence. But that intelligence is not possible for ordinary persons. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. One who gets this intelligence, such kind of mahatma, is very, very rarely found. To take it immediately, ah, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. That is very difficult.

manusyanam sahasresu

kascid yatati siddhaye

yatatam api siddhanam

kascin mam vetti tattvatah

 [Bg. 7.3]

It is not so easy to understand Krsna or to accept Krsna as all in all. Vasudevah sarvam. But if you take it, you are fortunate.

Doctor: And the only way to attain is reciting the name.

Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Do that. Therefore the temple is there. Everyone may come and see Krsna and think of Him. What is the difficulty? But he'll not come. He has concluded Krsna is nirakara. God is nirakara.

Doctor: Then Krsna will not come.

Prabhupada: Well now, Krsna... You... Whatever you think, that is your business, but Krsna is there everywhere.

Doctor: He is nirakara and sakara.

Prabhupada: Nirakara means He has no material akara. That is nirakara. Akara means we have got... Just like I have conception of you. So this akara is your material akara. It is not your real akara. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. The real person is within the body, but we have no connection with the real body. We see this outward... Just like seeing his dress, his... That's all.

Doctor: How to find the...? How to get to the atman, the inner body?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the first instruction in the Bhagavad-gita, that first of all, try to understand what is the person. So because we have no eyes to see, indirectly dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram... [Bg. 2.13]. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Antavanta ime deha nityasyoktah saririnah [Bg. 2.18]. So many things. Nainam dahati pavakah. So many indirect way because we cannot directly perceive.

Doctor: Nainam chindanti sastrani nainam dahati pavakah [Bg. 2.23].

Prabhupada: What is called? Definition by negation. Nainam chindanti -- negation. So that you can have some idea.

Doctor: Of what it is.

Prabhupada: It is not material. Because matter, chindanti, any matter it can be destroyed. It can be cut into pieces, it can be melted in fire, it can be moistened. So when we cannot understand things, it is given in the definition of negation.

Doctor: But then it's much better to worship God in form.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is intelligence. If you accept Krsna immediately, man-mana bhava mad..., then your life is successful. Krsna says man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru, mam evaisyasi satyam te [Bg. 18.65], He said. But they are not interested. Avajananti mam mudhah [Bg. 9.11]. "Ah, Krsna is a historical person. Why shall I think of Him? I shall think of omkara." You cannot think of omkara. You can hear. And as soon as you think of omkara it comes from? There is no impersonalism. It again becomes personal. So they want to avoid personality and as well as think of Him -- it becomes a very troublesome job. Kleso 'dhikataras tesam avyaktasakta-cetasam [Bg. 12.5]. They cannot think of avyakta, impersonal. But they are trying to think of. That is a very troublesome job. Klesala eva avasisyate.(?) Such attempt means he simply gets the result of his hard endeavor. That's all. He doesn't get any substance.

Doctor: So with faith accept the...

Prabhupada: No faith -- it is fact! Faith is blind.

Doctor: Faith is blind.

Prabhupada: Yes. Faith with good knowledge, that is nice. If you have good knowledge of Krsna and you have faith, that is very good. But if you... Just like Mayavadis, they say, "Imagine Krsna as God." They say, "Imagine."

Doctor: That is no good.

Prabhupada: They are no good. Kalpana. They say, kalpana. Sadhakanam gitarthaya(?) brahma-rupa-kalpana. Rupa-kalpana. But Krsna's rupa is not kalpana. It is fact. So kalpana is not faith, it is blind. Let me imagine some form of Krsna. And therefore gradually, they come down to the position that any form you imagine as God, that is all right. They have come to this degradation.

Doctor: That you can, any form...

Prabhupada: Yes. Any form you imagine that he is God, that will give you success. They say like that.

Doctor: I think I have taken too much of time.

Prabhupada: I am going there at six.

Doctor: Words of enlightenment.

Hari-sauri: Have you got any of Prabhupada's books?

Doctor: I have got some. I bought all the volumes of translation of Srimad-Bhagavatam. I have got all of them. But some of them have not arrived from United States, the latest ones. And I have got...

Hari-sauri: That's very nice.

Prabhupada: You are staying in New Delhi?

Doctor: I stay in the Hague, and come to New Delhi when there are no cases.

Prabhupada: Hague?

Doctor: Holland.

Prabhupada: Holland. That is the international court?

Doctor: Yes, the court case located, the headquarters.

Prabhupada: I went somewhere. That is also international. In Geneva, I think. Is there any...?

Doctor: Geneva is another headquarters of the, of the United Nations. New York, Geneva. But the court is in the Hague.

Prabhupada: So I went to that place in Geneva.

Doctor: Geneva has got so many specialized agencies of the United Nations, like the I.L.O. and so on.

Prabhupada: Do you think United Nations is making any tangible progress?

Doctor: Sir, it at least brings people together under one umbrella to discuss. If you did not have that...

Prabhupada: But discussion, that I have already explained.

Doctor: Sir, maybe, but if you don't discuss, you'll fight. Because if aim we don't meet at all then they will have the struggle.

Prabhupada: No. If you have no idea how to come to the conclusion, ciram vicinvan. You can forever go on discussing, you'll never come... You do not know what is the aim. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah [SB 7.5.31].

Doctor: Maybe so, but if two people instead of coming to blows come together to talk, it is a step in the right direction.

Prabhupada: No right direction because he does not know what is the aim.

Doctor: They both want to have peace so they at least try to...

Prabhupada: Everyone wants that. But if he does not know how to attain peace, then go on discussing forever. That is going on.

Doctor: But it is still a step in the right direction...

Prabhupada: I don't think there is any advancement.

Doctor: ...otherwise what is the aim?

Prabhupada: Otherwise, there is, but you don't take. How it can be done? In the Bhagavad-gita it is stated

bhoktaram yajna-tapasam

sarva-loka-mahesvaram

suhrdam sarva-bhutanam

jnatva mam santim rcchati

 [Bg. 5.29]

This is the process. But if you don't take it...

Doctor: But if that realization does not dawn... Till that realization...

Prabhupada: Then you go on barking. That is another thing.

Doctor: (laughs) It's better to bark than to bite.

Prabhupada: Then that is your satisfaction. You can do that peacefully.

Doctor: One day after barking they will come to a conclusion.

Prabhupada: No that is... Let it be known, fact, that that will never come. If you do not know what is the aim. That is stated, durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah. This is, means, a bad hope, that by this external exhibition of manipulation of energy, they will come to peace. It is not possible. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah adanta-gobhir... [SB 7.5.31]. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah. This kind of leading is made by the blind leaders. If the leaders are blind and the followers are blind, what result will be there?

Doctor: That is true, sir, but that stage has not come. One day it will come. But till that stage and that realization of...

Prabhupada: No, stage is there. But if the obstinate persons, they do not take it... Here it is clearly said... Just like Krsna says, sarva-loka-mahesvaram: [Bg. 5.29] "I am the proprietor of all the lands, all the planets." So how can you say no? There must be someone proprietor.

Doctor: But then God Himself has created the ego in man.

Prabhupada: No, no. He has created...

Doctor: God is the creator. He's also the creator of the ego of man.

Prabhupada: He has created ego. That is a fact, but you are utilizing the ego in a different way.

Doctor: Because the realization is not there.

Prabhupada: He is giving the intelligence but you are not accepting.

Doctor: Maybe so.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the difficulty. He has come to give you instruction, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. When you forget, there is glanir, discrepancies, in the discharge of your duties, He comes to give you instruction, but you don't accept. Now what, can be done? The teacher is giving you instruction, but you don't accept. Then how you'll be educated? This is going on. Mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam [Bg. 7.25]. They do not accept. They will write comments on Bhagavad-gita in their own way. You see? Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Yes. As it is. Don't comment in your own way. You'll not get any profit. Take for example any law, government law. Can I comment in my own way?

Doctor: No.

Prabhupada: Then why you comment on Bhagavad-gita?

Doctor: The law is meant for obedience.

Prabhupada: That's all. Similarly, if you accept Krsna as the Supreme Lord then whatever He has said... Just like Arjuna says, sarvam etad rtam manye yan mam vadasi kesava [Bg. 10.14]. "Whatever you are saying Kesava, I accept them in toto." That is acceptance. (end)

 
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with U.N. Doctor -- September 29, 1976, Vrndavana

© 2001 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International. Used with permission.

For higher quality audio, you may purchase the MP3s/CDs from www.Krishna.com