Professor: Well, you were saying beforehand...

Prabhupada: No, no, the dog doesn't care whether he is the proprietor of the body or not. So if I don't care, then what is the difference between dog and me?

Professor: The difference between dog and men is a very slight one, that men can think, that men can reason.

Prabhupada: So, you say slight; we say nothing. Unless one has got this transcendental knowledge, he is no better than the dog.

Professor: Dogs have knowledge.

Prabhupada: Yes, for eating, sleeping and sex life and defense, everyone has got knowledge. Dog has knowledge. You have got knowledge. But what is the distinction between you and dog? In your life, you can realize the transcendence. The dog cannot. That makes you distinct from...

Professor: Now, how can you be so sure of that? Have you ever been in a dog's mind? How can... As you have already said...

Prabhupada: There is no need... There is no need because dog is busy for his bodily requisition. And if you are simply busy for your bodily requisition, then what is the difference between you and dog? We have to take the principle.

Professor: Why is that difference so important for you?

Prabhupada: No, no, fundamentally what is the difference? The dog is whole day busy to find out his food, and if you are also busy to find out your food, then where is the difference?

Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying, "Because I am not this body, therefore it doesn't matter if I'm the owner of this body or not."

Prabhupada: No, then you have to... As soon as you decide that you are not this body, you are transcendental to this body, then you have to understand what is the transcendental nature and what is your business, what you should do. These things will come. At the present moment, because I identify me with this body, I am simply busy with this bodily concept of life. So as soon as you understand that "I am not this body," that is called brahma-bhutah stage, aham brahmasmi, "I am Brahman." That is the beginning of real knowledge.

Professor: (Spanish) That's the reason because I don't care what happens to this body, not because there is a difference between dog and man or anything.

Prabhupada: No, even if you care, who cares for you? It will go by nature's way.

Professor: Right.

Prabhupada: That we say. That we say. Now I have got this now nice body, and nature may offer something not very desirable body. Then what you will do?

Professor (Hrdayananda): He said it doesn't matter to him if he gets this body or that body, even a dog's body, because he will go on being himself.

Prabhupada: That's all right. It doesn't matter him, but there are persons -- he will shudder if he is said that "Next body you are going to become a dog." (laughter)

Professor (Hrdayananda): Where is the beginning of evolution, is that what he's saying? Where does evolution begin?

Devotee: What is the principle of evolution?

Hrdayananda: How can it be that we're advancing if we can become a dog in the next life, is that it, or something inferior? Where is the question of progress?

Prabhupada: What is that? No, by nature's way there is evolution, from dog to fox, fox to this, that, that. That is... There is a law. But again one can fall down. In this way one comes to the human form of body. That is the chance of self-realization. But if in the human form of life, he does not behave like a human being -- he behaves like cats and dogs -- then he gets again cats and dogs. So if by his work, he gets degradation to get the body like a dog, then again it will take millions of years to come to the human form of life. Therefore intelligent man should be very careful. He should not say, "I don't care." That is very risky life.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that he thinks that not everyone's looking for God, but people should be asked whether they want to be something different than what they are, and he thinks we need something practical, not simply something of faith.

Prabhupada: Therefore I say that every practical things are there in the Bhagavad-gita. You ask any question and the solution is there.

Professor (Hrdayananda): They say that they say the same thing of the Bible.

Prabhupada: Yes. You follow Bible. That is also nice. But you do not follow. That is the difficulty.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying that in this world we're all so limited, and we're like prisoners, and the more laws that we submit to, the more we become slaves.

Prabhupada: No, no more law. You simply follow the law given in the Bible, as you are speaking of Bible. The Bible says, "Thou shall not kill." Why you are violating? [break] ...if you don't follow, then you are not spiritualist; you are fool. You remain again in this, then ignorance.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He said, "In others words, is all humanity a fool then?"

Prabhupada: Yes. (laughter) Otherwise why there is Bible?

Professor (Hrdayananda): He said that it's impossible for, to follow... that you said we have to approach a perfect person, but that means we have to accept so many restrictions and this is actually impossible. It cannot be done.

Prabhupada: Then it is impossible for you to become a perfect man.

Professor (Hrdayananda): Why should the knowledge be so limited?

Prabhupada: No, it is not limited; it is unlimited. But to come to the unlimited, you have to cut down your limited knowledge.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He said he noticed that there are only men here. Does that mean that women cannot become transcendental?

Prabhupada: Why not? There are so many women. Knowledge is not restricted to men. It is open for everyone. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita,

mam hi partha vyapasritya

ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah

striyo vaisyas tatha sudras

te 'pi yanti param gatim

 [Bg. 9.32]

[break] Everyone is open. Just like university. University is not restricted to a certain class. It is open for everyone. Everyone can go, take the knowledge. And similarly, prison house is open for everyone. (laughter) Now you make your choice whether you go to university or prison house.

Professor (Hrdayananda): How can one cut down his limited knowledge if he's habituated to material life?

Prabhupada: Well, habit can be changed. Just like nobody is habituated smoking from the very beginning of his life, but by association he learns smoking. And again, by association he can give it up. These boys, American, European boys, they were habituated so many bad things. Now they have given up.

Professor (Hrdayananda): How can we know what is good and what is bad? How can we define them?

Prabhupada: When you come to the good, you will understand what is good. When you come to the bad, you understand what is bad.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He does not understand.

Prabhupada: Suppose now there are a class of thief and class of honest men. So if you associate with the thieves, you will learn how to steal. But you understand also that "People hate us." The thieves, the thief class, they know that the people hate, the police arrest, the police put them... They also know that. But because they are habituated, they cannot give it up.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He's saying stealing is relative. Some people steal because they watch television, some people steal because they're hungry or they need things...

Prabhupada: Well, in the eyes of the law, when you go to the court, if somebody has stolen some diamond and if somebody has stolen some insignificant thing, in the court the six month prison is there. The man who has stolen an insignificant thing, the judge does not make any concession for him. "You have stolen, you must go to the jail." And the man who has stolen the diamond, he also takes the same term. So stealing is stealing. Either you steal diamond or a little fruit, it doesn't matter. The punishment is the same for the diamond-stealer and anything-insignificant-stealer. That is the law.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He still does not understand how we can say that one activity is bad or good. For example, he said that we gave the example of thieves, but that implies that previously there was already a standard that "This is good, and this is bad." But he wants to know how he can know definitely what is good and what is bad.

Prabhupada: To become God conscious is good, and anything else, all bad. God is good. Therefore, if you are God conscious, you are good, and if you are not God conscious, then you are bad.

Professor (Hrdayananda): If God created man?

Prabhupada: Yes. God created everything. God created man, God created dog, God created demigods, God created everything.

Professor: He made us imperfect.

Prabhupada: No, He is not imperfect.

Professor: No, God made us imperfect.

Prabhupada: No, you have got that... Just like you have stolen, and you have gone to the prison house. That means judge is not imperfect; you are imperfect.

Professor: If God has not created us imperfect?

Prabhupada: No, God has created perfect, but you have become imperfect by misusing your independence. God is fully independent. You are part and parcel of God. Therefore you have got that quality, independence. When you misuse that, you become bad; when you use it properly, you remain good.

Professor (Hrdayananda): Yes. How do we make ourselves bad?

Prabhupada: Therefore the Bible is there: "You become good like this." If you don't do, then you become bad. The Bible says that "Thou shall not kill." If you don't kill, then you are good. If you kill, you are bad.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He said there is no guarantee of perfect knowledge because at one time we had perfect knowledge, but as you said, we threw it away. So therefore...

Prabhupada: No, no, you misused the perfect knowledge. Just like here is perfect knowledge: Bible says, "Thou shall not kill." You are misusing, you are killing. That is your fault.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He wants to know if we are born good and then we learn the bad thing?

Prabhupada: No, so long we have got this material body -- you are born good or bad, but when you do not get this material body -- you remain in your spiritual body -- that is good. Just like...

Professor (Hrdayananda): He said, "So no one can be born bad, but by contact with humanity he becomes bad."

Prabhupada: Then make the humanity good.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He said that if he sees that he is not harming anyone, then he is always right, if he is not harming anyone.

Prabhupada: That he thinks. But the authority thinks otherwise.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He says he doesn't know.

Prabhupada: Then that is his mistake. Just like a man does not know what is law, but that is no excuse.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He says that he can accept that man is born perfect, but that his development is imperfect, but he cannot accept that man is born imperfect.

Prabhupada: No, that we don't say. Therefore man is advised to associate with perfect so that he can keep his perfectness.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He says, "The problem is there are so many millions of people, but there are so few perfect persons."

Prabhupada: One perfect person is sufficient to teach thousands of imperfect persons.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He says he thinks you are right because the example is Buddha and Christ, and so many people follow them.

Prabhupada: They are perfect, but the followers do not follow the instructions. That does not mean they are imperfect.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He says that it is not enough, contact with a perfect being, because, as you said, so many people come into contact but change teachings. Therefore it's necessary also to realize the knowledge.

Prabhupada: Therefore you have to keep the original teaching in perfect order, without any interpretation.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He thanks you very much for explaining so many things.

Prabhupada: So our request is to study this Krsna consciousness movement and try to help it.

Professor (Hrdayananda): You have given the example that one has to give up certain habits such as one should not smoke and things, but is it true that that is not the ultimate goal of transcendence?

Prabhupada: No, that is a process.

Professor (Hrdayananda): Can someone outside, who does not follow these practices, can he achieve perfection?

Prabhupada: Maybe, but that is exceptional.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He said that Buddha achieved perfection outside of joining any particular religion, and that after reading so many things and hearing all different philosophies that it was actually the practice.

Prabhupada: He changed himself religion.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He says that... It's some story that when Buddha was about to leave his body, he said that... Anyway, the conclusion of the story is that he also considered himself imperfect.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the greatness of Buddha. Because his followers were imperfect, he could not say more than what they could understand. Therefore he said that "I am imperfect." His mission was to stop animal killing. But people are very much accustomed to animal killing, so he did not say higher things that they could not understand. For them, if they could stop animal killing, that was perfection. For primary student, if he understands the mathematics, two plus two equal to four, that is his perfection. That does not mean there is no higher mathematics. Give them prasada. Wait, wait. Bring it. Wait, wait little minute. [break] ...otherwise one cannot understand spiritual matter.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He says, "That's another one of my problems."

Prabhupada: It is not problem; it is practice. If you come here daily, within a week you will learn.

Professor: Every night?

Prabhupada: Yes. We can give you hundreds of preparations, vegetarian.

Professor (Hrdayananda): They asked if we're eating anything, so I said we eat before and after all of them.

Prabhupada: We shall eat also. [break] So I request you to come every Sunday and take feast with us. [break]

Professor (Hrdayananda): He wants to know, for example, if I eat meat today, if I lose my chance for enlightenment.

Prabhupada: No, you do not lose. You hear from the enlightened. Then you will be enlightened, and you will automatically give up meat-eating. Therefore our business is to hear from the enlightened. That is the first business. Other things not immediately needed. Even if you cannot give up meat-eating, still, you hear from the enlightened.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He asked me how much time I've been in the movement.

Prabhupada: How much time?

Hrdayananda: He asked me how much time...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Hrdayananda: He wanted to know if we make the yogurt ourselves. He said we must be specialists. He said we should put it in bottles and make "Hare Krsna yogurt."

Prabhupada: That is also good. (laughter) Because they will chant Hare Krsna, and that will have effect. Hare Krsna is transcendental vibration, so anyone who will vibrate the sound, he will get the benefit.

Hrdayananda: He wants to know who give us our mantra, if the spiritual master gives us our mantra.

Prabhupada: Yes, spiritual master.

Professor: Hay una ceremonia?

Prabhupada: No, you can chant without ceremony. There is no loss. You can chant Hare Krsna and see the effect.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He said he has seen us in New York and London, and one thing he has noticed that wherever he sees us, our faces are very satisfied, content.

Prabhupada: You are intelligent. (laughter)

Professor (Hrdayananda): That even though it's outside, it shows that there's something special inside.

Prabhupada: No, this enquiry was made by one priest. I was going from Los Angeles to Hawaii. The priest was in his ordinary dress. He came. He said, "Swamiji, can I talk with you?" "Yes." He first of all he said, "How your disciples look so nice and full of spiritual consciousness?" That was his first question. No, everything has got process. If we adopt the process, the result is there.

Professor (Hrdayananda): How do we finance our movement?

Prabhupada: By Krsna's grace. It is no sends us money.(?) We are spending about ten hundred thousand dollar per month. Krsna is providing.

Professor: Ten thousand...

Prabhupada: Ten hundred thousand. Million dollar. We are getting especially by selling these books. Our book selling is increasing. We are selling fifty thousand copies at the present moment of all these books.

Hrdayananda: Every month.

Prabhupada: Every month. In America all the universities, professors, learned scholar, they are giving us standing order, "As soon as published, please send this."

Professor (Hrdayananda): Where in the world do we find that people most understand us and join us?

Prabhupada: America, North America. Now we have come to South America.

Professor: (Spanish) I saw the Hare Krsna movement on British television, and they had an interview with the head of the Hare Krsna movement there, and they sang and they danced and many other things there. So people are very receptive to the message of...

Prabhupada: All over the world. In Africa also.

Professor: But here in Venezuela, I find that Venezuelans, or at least the government, has been a little bit too intolerant with your people here.

Prabhupada: Government is not tolerant?

Hrdayananda: Has been a little bit too intolerant. In the past they were a little bit pushy. But now they have stopped.

Prabhupada: No, if anyone reads our books, then he will accept it. Therefore we are trying to publish all our books in different languages.

Professor (Hrdayananda): How is our movement doing in India?

Prabhupada: India, it is already there. Every person is Krsna conscious in India.

Professor (Hrdayananda): He's asking, "Everyone in India?"

Prabhupada: Yes, everyone, by nature they are Krsna conscious, but the modern leaders, they are trying to divert their attention. The leaders are trying to make them Krsna unconscious. (laughter) Because they are of opinion that "Being Krsna conscious, India is so backward. So we have to become American conscious or European conscious." That is their...

Professor (Hrdayananda): It was a great pleasure that you invited us to your...